So I've spent the last 4 days reading about the Holocaust and the Jews for my exam on....The Jews and the Holocaust.
I'm in a pretty depressingly miserable mood these days

and now this idiot claims that the holocaust never happened, what a ****bag. Part of my family went through the holocaust and he denies it? he wants to wipe out Israel? He's the next Hitler, we need to get rid of him as soon as possible.
sorry for going a bit off topic

^^ Until he starts hunting down people he's got nothing on Adolf. Until then, he's just historically impaired.

Actually,
he controls the press and keeps down dissidents while having a global stage because he is a leader. He may have nothing on Hitler now but he is definately working on it.

This guy is very dangerous to the whole world. I like that students are burning his picture. I hope they survive the week

Wow, quantum mechanics makes my head hurt...........stupid erwin schrodinger and his differential equations to descibe quantum probability......

I dont think he's dangerous. If you have Bush runnin around sayin he's gonna eat a particular country up for breakfast, when he has'nt already digested the country he ate last night for dinner, well what can you (being the leader of that country) do?

This dude aint a global threat. Neither was Saddam Hussein. Bush probably killed more Iraqi's than Saddam did in all those years.

anyone who says this guy is not a global threat is either ignorant, stupid, or is trying to be stupid (no offence).
I have talk to multiple history and civics professors and they all agree, this guy is a HUGE threat.
This is a similar thing to what Hitler did, first they find a way yo isolate the Jews, then Hitler put them in ghetto and annihilated them.
This guy now is trying to isolate us (the Jews), by wiping Israel off the map, do you think he means that he'll take over the country and let the Jews live there? NO, he'll kill them all. He's the next Hitler period.
Maybe not WW3 but there will definitely be a war with him, he is a huge threat.
How can you question something like the holocaust? It's like me saying that 9/11 never happened, it was all graphics and those buildings were never there.
There is tons of footages, documents, and even survivors that will show that holocaust was real. Why won't they discuss if the sun is really there? maybe it's some alien pointing a flashlight at us who knows.

whoops there buddy. 2 things. 1) I dint know you were Jewish (im sorry but my previous post offended you i know. Sorry about that).

2) I dint even read that article. I thought he was just talkin about the holocaust being fake or what not. Dint know he made actual anti-jewish remarks.

Well now that i have read the article, he's making them because he wants to back up his islamic brothers by backing up Palestine. And we all know Israel runs Palestine. So its a religious issue with Muslims going to religious war with Christians and Jews. Atleast that's what it seems like right now. But i dont wanna talk about it anymore. Sorry to offend you lil homie butchers.
BTW, Pau Gasol's coming back BIATCH!

So is Bush. Damn the weather is nice. I hope it doesn't snow till January.

1. The Holocaust happened. It was a monumental crime committed against Jews, Communists, Slavs, Roma, the handicapped, gays etc. One has to be totally irrational and lack a basic moral conscience to deny it. The Tehran conference is stupid and deplorable.

2. The Tehran Conference as much as anything is a sign of the domestic crisis of the Iranian regime. It is politically bankrupt and won't last another generation and today the only thing giving it any staying power is its defensive position against Israeli and US aggression.

3. And the US and Israel are giving it staying power with their threats, mid-east bloodbaths and might makes right hypocrisies.

4. Iran is not the next Nazi Germany. There's an important difference, nearly imperceptible to all except those possessing common sense and a few basic facts:

Germany circa 1933: One of the worlds premier imperialist powers. Massive industrial capacities, capital to export and an experience with and desire for attaining colonial expansion all feeding into a massive war drive to redivide the spoils of the globe.

Iran 2006: A third world country with some oil that excels at making rugs and with an armaments industry that pails in comparison to any western nation (let alone Israel which postures as a victim but is in fact one of the worlds principle military powers). In the 80's during the Iran-Iraq war they ran out of arms and started sending soldiers to fight with sticks. I crap you not, sticks. It has no ability to project power globally beyond ordering an ineffective hit on Salman Rushdie. I am trembling. How will I ever sleep tonight?


5. There is however a definite axis of 3 powers in this world that between them have in recent years launched several illegal invasions in an attempt to redraw the world map, hold a civilian population in a ghetto that they have been committing genocide against for decades, have been actively undermining democracy and openly resorted to increasingly deplorable means of occupation and combat.

Also I read what the Iranian president said. He said wiped off the map in the same way as the USSR. That isn't genocide, it's political collapse. I don't know if you don't understand the difference or are simply being sensationalist and untruthful in your representation of the remarks. He proposed elections for all muslims, jews and christians. That isn't genocide, but it is what Israeli leaders and a large section of Israeli society fears. To live in a multi-ethnic democratic state in which Jews are not the majority and do not enjoy priviledged laws, but rather have to live as equals with Palestinians.

Incidentally another thing that has happened and is happening is the genocide against the Palestinians by Israel. And to deny that one would also have to be irrational and lacking in basic moral decency.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook12142006.html

Above is the link to a VERY good article by Jonathan Cook a journalist and writer based in Nazareth, Israel.

The first part deals with why Hamas would be foolish to "recognize" Israel (and what that really means), and later he goes on to explain why Israel is the real danger and is so bent on an aggressive war drive against Iran. Basically debunks the type of BS that Raptor Forever is spouting here, pretending to be in impending danger as a victim.

This is such a crock.



Wow. Now this is REALLY a crock.

I'm just creating a separate thread so you guys can argue this solutionless debate until your fingers bleed.

My one request...whatever fighting is going on, leave it over there. Dont bring your wars to my quiet little pacifist country.

You make a very convincing argument.

Man, remember the last time you let a thread like this pass?

I just think at the end of the day, people's biased viewed will get the best out of them, and no arguments will be settled.

I disagree. The Middle East Crisis will be solved on the Raptorblog message board. I am sure of it.

It's just easier to lock a separate thread then Random Bantor.

Now be nice everyone.

Thanks it was a good read.

whatever, there is really no point explaining it to you. So let me recap,
1. you think hamas is doing the right thing to do and they're awesome?
2. You think the Iranian president (or is it a PM I don't know) is not a threat? and you actually think when he'll "wipe Israel off the map" It'll be innocent? The difference is that when the USSR fell apart, it was by Russians, just with a different point of view. But here your talking about different races, by wiping Israel off the map, I'm pretty sure he means literally, with the citizens. If you think I'm wrong, then think again for a second. Why do they want that land anyways? because we took it from them and they want it back to live in it, so if they wipe out Israel you think they'll let us live there and they'll live on the streets? No, they'll kill most of us (knock on wood). That's part of the reason I moved here, a bigger war is going to happen over there, and it's not going to be pretty.
But hey, go ahead and support them, they just want their land back right? so what if they kill all the Jews in the process?

Hey how many muslims did israel kill in the so called process of freeing its soliders held "captive"? What about all the people Bush killed in Iraq to find WMDs, i mean remove of Saddam? people in afgahnistan to find and kill Bin Laden?

Better still, how many Israelis has Iran killed?

And how much destuction in Lebanon did the Nasrallah cause - and is it right for them to try and change the regime as Iran's and Syria's proxy? I have a lot of Lebanese freinds who seek some stawbility and its funny how they blame the extremists and not Israel. Granted - they are Christians
The guy in Iran is going down. He is an embarassment to his whole country. Lincoln pegged him well - that said I still say he is dangerous. He is being voted out as we speak
Bush is a criminal - so is most of the GOP.

If you don't want Israels destructiuon then I will discuss.
If you want to review the issue of the right of return and are willing to deal with it in terms of return to egypt and syria and jordan then I am happy to give up land, but dont ask for more of the city with our most historical significance.

And howe many Iranians has Israel killed?

If a bartender who gives someone the drink is arrested after that person kills someone in a car accident then the person who funds the shells falling in northern Israel is culpable in the killing.

you accept the argumnent that wiped off the map is a map redefined. I find that the same as destroying a nuclear refinement facility to protect your future security.


Look I expect these fancy arguments from all of you experts. They say the same vitrolic hatred they always have. They are as one sided to me as you see mine.

Ted said we are going to solve the problems of the ME here on raptorblog (in jest). I say our arguments that go no where because I know you are wrong and you know I am wrong.
Let's see even one post about compromise

So what's being said here? Kill all them Israeli's and invade Israel?

Tyranny never wants compromise. Tyranny only wants capitulation. No thanks.

NOt being willing to comprimise is the problem. Call it tyranny if you want, I call your position futility and the perpetuation of the status quo which doesn't work for anyone.
I call the incessant attempts to delegitimize the partition plan, the continuous agression since the creation of Israel or all of her neighbors and the ettemps at Israels destruction in the name of the rights of the indiginous people in the region a waste of time. Terrorism will not win. Come to the table or continue as it has been or continue to shoot from within a circle of your most valued possesion -your future - your children.

Efman posts a politically offencive video

That was from Dennis Leary's special or something I think...

Trust me, those statistics are rarely shown. It somehow falls under some fancy title to cover it up. But people are beginning to notice.

If anything, people should notice that those deaths are Hezbollah's responsibility. By hiding ammo and weaponry behind civilians they are 100% culpable in their deaths.

^ Wow.

So some scumbag hides some guns in the basement of an apartment complex and all of a sudden every man, woman and child living there becomes a legitimate target?

That's not "Hezbollah's fault", that's an Israeli war crime.

Are you sure you know what a "war crime" is? By deliberately hiding in and operating out of civilian populated areas, terrorists such as Hezbollah use their own civilians as shields. Its a viloation of international law to use civilians as shields, and under international law a civilian who is killed while being used as a shield is counted as a casualty caused by those using him as a shield, not by those who were legitmately trying to attack an appropriate military target such as an armed terrorist.

Let's say a bankrobber takes a hostage during a heist, and threatens to open fire on a crowd of bystanders while committing the act. A sniper aims to take out the bankrobber in order to prevent the thief from killing the people in the crowd. But in doing so, the sniper accidentally kills the hostage. Who's at fault? The perpetrator scumbag or the sniper?

Terrorist organizations such as Hezbollah target civilians while conducting an attack whereas the Israeli army targets the terrorist militants themselves. If the terrorist militants cowardly launch an attack and then hide, in civilian clothing, amongst civilians using them as a shield, then its the terrorists fault that civilians are killed. Israel has every right to defend itself against terrorist aggression and does everything in its capacity to avoid civilian deaths.

Besides, it was hardly "some guns" being stored in a basement apartment complex. There were highly destructive rockets that resulted in a considerable amount of damage. If a neighbouring country is launching rockets into another country's soil, the country under attack has every right to defend itself.

Stop to think for a second what the strategic purpose is behind the storing of weaponry in heavily populated areas as opposed to storing it in military outposts outside of the cities and towns. Terrorists hide behind their civilian shields when they attack, and then when civilians are tragically, but accidentally, killed in legitimate self defense, its the terrorists to blame for such a despicable strategy.

Ok shutup seriously you are running all over the place, stay on topic. You make good arguments but they arent exactly on topic. I infact agree with your logic on what you are talking about but you are missing a bunch of very very very key facts, which i will type in bold and capitalize so you dont miss them again.

THE LEADER OF IRAN IS NOT A THREAT TO THE JEWS NOR THEIR RELIGION!! HE DOES NOT GO AROUND MURDERING JEWS NOR DOES HE ADVOCATE THAT. HIS COUNTRY IS HOME TO THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF JEWS WHO HAVE LIVED THERE IN MORE THAN ACCEPTABLE RELIGIOUS AND CULTURAL FREEDOM FOR DECADES. IN FACT IN IRAN IT IS A LAW THAT A CERTAIN NUMBER (I THINK ITS ONLY TWO OR SOMETHING) POLITICAL SEATS MUST BE GIVEN TO THE JEWS. THESE JEWS DONT LEAVE IRAN TO MOVE BACK TO ISREAL, BECAUSE THEY ARE EITHER AGAINST ISREAL AND ZIONISM OR JUST DONT HAVE ANY REASON (AKA THREAT) TO LEAVE IRAN.

So once again Iran and its leader has no documented history of killing innnocent jews, nor is he a proven threat. Israel on the other hand has a documented history of killing innocent civilians (not always, but more than occasionally that it defends with hypocritical reasons). That is whats being discussed dont bother giving us examples of your friends opinions etc, cause anyone can manufacture that stuff up.

Everything about this post is absurd. It is you who is "manufacturing stuff up".

You mention "very very very key facts" are missing from the other post, but nothing what you say is at all factual. You say "THOUSANDS OF JEWS WHO HAVE LIVED THERE IN MORE THAN ACCEPTABLE RELIGIOUS AND CULTURAL FREEDOM FOR DECADES". When a widespread holocaust denial conference is occuring where prizes are being awarded for best cartoons, and where internationally renown biggot David Duke is saying that jews didn't really die in gas chambers, I hardly think Iranian Jews are lauding Iran for its more than acceptable cultural freedoms.

You say the Iranian president doesn't go around murdering jews nor does he advocate that. He just wants to wipe an entire country off the map that happens to be the place where over 6 million jews happen to live. Oh, and he just so happens to declare that he's well on his way to building a nuclear facility capable of doing so.

As for Israel's "documented history of killing innocent civilians" like I said above, the death of civilians at the hands of Israel is a tragic byproduct of Israel's self-defense against enemy aggression. Israel gains nothing from killing innocent civilians and does everything in her power to avoid such tragedy. Terrorist organizations, on the other hand, like Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad intentionally target schools, nurseries, women and children with rockets and suicide bombs. You will not see Israel point a tank shell at a school with the intention of killing children. Israel only targets armed militants. This is vast distinction in terms of moral culpability.

Here are some key facts:

1. The leader of Iran has said he wants to wipe Israel of the map. Its obvious to anyone with half a brain that he meant it contrary to Lincoln's analogy to the political demise of the USSR. It is not the first time he has said it.

2. The Iranian president has prouldy announced that they have enriched a certain amount of uranium and there is a large amount of concern in the international community regarding Iran's nuclear intentions.

Combine fact 1 with fact 2 and it is difficult to see how Iran cannot be perceived as a real threat.

^ Again you are avoiding the only proven fact, and going back to why iran could be perceived as a threat.

How many of the jews living in Iran has this man murdered? None. And thats what i have been trying to get through.

So what would lead you to believe he would start now? And dont tell me cause he didnt have Nukes before, that could all be interperted as BS to invade Iran next. It is safe to assume every national leader has more than a reasonable amount of power to abuse over people and property within his own country. In countries with less political accountability like iran this freedom to abuse gets multiplied. He has had power to hurt or murder the jews within his country for a long time, but he hasn't. Maybe cause he does want to murder any jews? Why cant you understand this?

You can take whatever you want from his statements and look at them like Linc did or like you want to, but this guy has a clean record as for being a danger to Israel's existence. You talk about nukes and enough enriched uranium, etc, but did you ever wonder if iran has even ever tested (they might have i am not iranian so i dont know) a ballistic missle capable of carrying a nuclear warhead safely to the range of isreal and beyond? The guy most likely isnt even half as capable as you fear and like i have stated he hasnt actually ever hurt a jew(even though he very well could have and would have gotten away with it), yet you sir cant seem to think of anything but the worse of the situation, and the person.

"Israel only targets armed militants."

Wow palestine must have the largest ratio of population to arms (not to mention being militants) on the planet, because the amount of deaths caused by isreal is pretty damn high.

No they just have the most pathetic militants who dress in womens clothing and hide in densly populated suburban areas or behind baby carriages. In Lebanon Nasrallah's people launched from behind UN observer posts. Jenin was widely touted as a massacre but in truth was one a booby trap that Fatah wnted removed as much as the Israeli's. Su[pporters of a solution with Israel are shot and killed - makes it tough to get discussion going with when you have a bullet in your skullAs for the guy in Iran - when you can whip up an already enraged population who see's Israel as the west's proxy you fuel the violence. Go ahead and believe what you want I wwont buy it. Just like Picnic thinks Israel are tyrants I think the entire Arab and muslim world would like to see Israel destroyed, moved to Guadeloupe and their infidel religion abolished, and Israel needs to protect herself..

When are the arabs countried going to deal with the problem they created? Go ahead and piss all over Israel on this thread like you do in all threads. You can flame all you want but you won't win the war, unless it is a civil one.

Good luck to Fatah - at least they want to negotiate.

As for this bull about the jews living in peace in Iran, I know a lot of Iranians and a few ex Iranian jews- trhe ones there are the idiot fringe of a bizzare sect that does not recognize Israel as existing because the messiah is not here. Its funny how they all call themselves Persians....

Keep banging away on your keyboards Israel is here to stay with Jerusalem as the capital. NOw lets start more useful talk around borders and co existing. Oh wait - you are going to be like the poeple there and say no compromise. GO ahead and continue to live in squalor. Hey maybe your fiunancial supporters will build you a school or a hospital instead of more bombs if you ask?

Like I always maintain in the immortal words of Golda Meir - There will be people when you love your children more than you hate us.

Lots going on here.

One thing I we should be clear on is that Israeli attacks on civilian infrastructure in Lebanon do constitite war crimes under international law. There's no debate about this. Furthermore the human shield argument doesn't wash as it has been established that Israel was bombing a large variety of civilian targets it had no reasonable basis to assume were connected with Hezbollah and in areas Hezbollah did not even operate in.





Just to be clear here. The USSR comparison was not my analogy. It is the comparison the Iranian president himself made.

I like how you state "there is no debate about this" as if its an established universal truth or as if Israel has been convicted of war crimes in an international court of law. Yet this is far from the case and the only war crimes committed are the crimes perpetrated by the terrorists intentionally targetting israeli civilians.




It washes. If militants dressed in civilian clothing, storing weapony and launching attacks from dense population centres doesn't constitute a human shield, I'm not sure what would. Moreover, your allegation that Israel bombed civilian targets with no connections to Hezbollah is categorically untrue. In fact, Israel goes as far as humanly possible to avoid civilian deaths.

Funny how you only mention those who died in Lebanon. What about in Afghanistan and Iraq. Hey why not count those numbers as well. A life is a life isn't it? Isn't it weird how there are families dying every day in those countries, yet we so rarely read about them in any paper. I wish they could just show the death poll to put things into perspective.

Real nice reply there, addressing what was basically a "PS" type of question/point and totally avoiding the real argument about the poor irani head not being anywhere near the threat you guys are making him out to be.

That wasn't politically offensive, that was satirically hilarious. Extremism sucks, unless it's pro wrestling, which then makes it cool.